Deprioritizing Friendship in the Hierarchy of Relationships • Friendship is deprioritized to romantic relationships in our culture. • Growing up, many of us believed that romantic relationships are the most important. • The cultural narrative around relationships can make it hard for people to discern what they actually want. • Having a large network of friends might be preferable for some people over a romantic relationship.
Speaker 2
This is one of the reasons I was obsessed with having you on a slight change of plans is because I think your work does speak to this larger cultural issue, which is that we deprioritize Friendship to a third great relationship. And I was thinking back to my past and the views that I had. And I absolutely grew up thinking that romantic relationships sit at the top of the relationship hierarchy and that if you don’t have that, it really doesn’t matter how many friends You have or how high quality those friendships are.
Speaker 1
Exactly. Yep. I had definitely felt the same way. And I guess we even hear things like, you need one person to complete you, which really made me feel like I didn’t have a sense of self without having a romantic partner. And also, why do we think that one template fits for everybody? I think that when we have a cultural narrative that’s so crushing, it can get hard for people to actually discern, like, what do I actually want in my life? It’s actually best for me. Like, would I prefer a life where I have a large network of friends and am single? But yeah, when your society teaches you that if you make that choice, you’re less of a person, people aren’t as free to actually discern what is the life that I actually went for myself?
Speaker 2
You know, the argument you make in your book is that we need to reclaim friendship and elevate it to the status that it deserves.The Connection Between Friendship and Physical/Mental Health • Research suggests that having a diversity of support is linked to better physical and mental health. • Having strong friendships can increase resilience in all relationships, not just romantic ones. • Perceiving friendships and romantic relationships as antagonistic is unfortunate.
Speaker 2
Marissa, I’m curious. Is there research showing that there is a strong connection between friendship and our physical and mental health?
Speaker 1
Yeah. So there’s a study that found that people that were exposed to the virus that causes the common cold, for example, were less likely to actually contract the common cold when they had A diversity of support when they weren’t just relying on spouse, but relying on different people for support in their lives. And there’s other research that just links having a diversity of support to your general sense of well-being overall.
Speaker 2
I love the research, Marissa, that shows that healthy, strong friendships are associated with more resilience and our other relationships. Do you mind sharing a bit more about that? Yeah.
Speaker 1
So there’s research too, because I think it’s unfortunate that we sometimes perceive our romantic relationships and our friendships as antagonistic. Like, oh, you’re hanging out with your friends. You’re not hanging out with me.The Benefits of Quality Connections Outside of Romantic Relationships - Insights from Research • Making friends not only improves one’s mental health, but it is likely to improve their partner’s mental health too. • Having quality connection outside of marriage serves as a buffer against the negative impacts of conflicts in the marriage. • It is important to perceive romantic relationships and friendships as complementary, not antagonistic.
Speaker 1
So there’s research too, because I think it’s unfortunate that we sometimes perceive our romantic relationships and our friendships as antagonistic. Like, oh, you’re hanging out with your friends. You’re not hanging out with me. Instead of, oh, you’re hanging out with your friends. That’s great. Now we can have more quality connection when you come back. Definitely. Which is the truth because, you know, research finds that, for example, if I make a friend, not only am I less depressed, but my romantic partner is also likely to be less depressed. So what can improve one partner’s mental health will likely improve the other partner’s mental health. That’s what we see when people make friends. There’s research that finds that when spouses are in a state of conflict, it negatively impacts their release of the stress hormone cortisol, but not when they have that quality connection Outside of the marriage as well. And so it’s just like, if you’re just relying on your spouse, whatever happens in that relationship is going to be so deterministic for how you’re doing overall. But if you have quality connection outside of the marriage, it’s like you have a buffer, you know? You kind of have a shield. You’re going well. That doesn’t mean that you’re completely sunk internally because you can rely on these outside resources as a pick me up. Okay.
Speaker 2
So Marissa, you’ve convinced us that friendship is important, right? It’s something that we should all be working to invest in. I’m wondering if we can get tactical at this stage and if we can learn from you how we can do a better job of making friends in adulthood.
Speaker 1
I think an issue that we have is that we think friendship will happen in adulthood like it did in childhood, which means we won’t have to try and be intentional. And there’s a sociologist Rebecca Adams and she says, when we have repeated unplanned interaction and shared vulnerability, that’s when friendships happen more organically. They never don’t life. It’s like, do you see people in a way that’s repeated over time, even though it’s not planned, like work, for example? And do you have your guard down?Tips for Making Friends in Adulthood • Repeating unplanned interactions and shared vulnerability are key to making friendships organically. • Adults cannot assume that friendships will happen organically like in childhood. • Adults need to be intentional and invest time in creating opportunities for repeated interactions with vulnerability.
Speaker 2
So Marissa, you’ve convinced us that friendship is important, right? It’s something that we should all be working to invest in. I’m wondering if we can get tactical at this stage and if we can learn from you how we can do a better job of making friends in adulthood.
Speaker 1
I think an issue that we have is that we think friendship will happen in adulthood like it did in childhood, which means we won’t have to try and be intentional. And there’s a sociologist Rebecca Adams and she says, when we have repeated unplanned interaction and shared vulnerability, that’s when friendships happen more organically. They never don’t life. It’s like, do you see people in a way that’s repeated over time, even though it’s not planned, like work, for example? And do you have your guard down? And at work, I don’t know if people have their guard downs. Like they tend to not be as vulnerable as they might be outside of the workplace. So basically what that means is like, as adults, we don’t have that same environment we had as kids to just rely on friendship happening. We can’t assume that it happens organically anymore. Like we’re going to have to try. And in fact, one study found that people that thought friendship happened without effort were more lonely over time, whereas those that saw it as happening based on effort were less Lonely over time. And they were also more likely to actually make that effort. So I think by showing up at a place of worship or a hobby or interest group.The Importance of Repeated Interactions and the Mere Exposure Effect in Facilitating Friendships • The mere exposure effect describes our tendency to like things that are familiar. • Repeated interactions with someone increases mere exposure and can lead to increased liking and trust. • Initiating friendship is often difficult due to fear of rejection. • Research finds that people actually like you more than you might think.
Speaker 2
Can you tell us a bit more about why repeated interactions are so important when it comes to facilitating friendship? Yeah.
Speaker 1
So it’s because of something called the mere exposure effect, which the mere exposure effect describes our tendency to like things that are familiar and for people to like us, the more That we become familiar. If you continue to be exposed to someone, they don’t harm you, then you feel trust with them. And so I think when we have that repeated interaction, mere exposure increases, we like them more. They like us more. And if we do want to initiate an interaction and say something like, hey, I’ve really enjoyed talking to you. We’d love to connect further. You open to exchanging contact information. We’re just more likely to be successful versus when we’ve seen someone once, maybe at like a lecture at a bar and then we ask them to hang out.
Speaker 2
You know, one reason we fear initiating friendship is that, of course, most of us are afraid of rejection. And so what’s your advice to us to help us overcome this kind of anxiety?
Speaker 1
Well, the research finds that people like you more than you think they do. He specifically, right? Now I’m just kidding. Yeah, you specifically, the rest of us, it’s going to be rough out there. That basically when strangers interact, they then underestimate how liked they are by the other person.The Liking Gap: Why People Tend to Like Us More Than We Think • There is a liking gap that exists between our expectations of how much people like us versus how much we think they like us. • People tend to like us more than we think. • Believing that you are likable and lovable is a self-fulfilling prophecy and brings out your best traits. • If you believe you will get rejected, it will bring out your worst sides. • People may act in harmful ways in friendships because they think people don’t care about them.
Speaker 2
So to summarize, there is a… This is so interesting because I talked with Vanessa Bons for this show as well, and she calls this the liking gap, right? And I’m assuming that’s what you’re referring to, which is the liking gap. Yes. So there’s a gap between our expectations of how much people really like us versus how much we think they like us. And the good news is that they tend to like us more than we think. So that’s reassuring. Yes. And the good news is just remember that it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. So play the part of someone who believes they are likable and lovable and worthy of friendship love. And the more you do that, the more your best traits are recruited from you. Whereas if you go into a situation believing you’ll get rejected, that will bring out the worst sides of you, right?
Speaker 1
Exactly. You know, that is a really great point. Really when I see people act in very harmful ways in their friendship, it’s because they think people don’t care about them, right?Believing that you are liked brings out your best qualities — a self-fulfilling prophecy that applies beyond social psychology. In faith traditions, the concept of “calling” operates similarly: the belief that one is chosen or valued produces the very qualities that justify the belief. The mechanism is the same whether the domain is friendship or vocation.Mutuality in Friendship and Prioritizing Needs • Investment in relationships leads to vulnerability and better relationships. • Mutuality involves prioritizing each other’s needs based on the situation rather than strict reciprocity. • It’s important to recognize when one person may have more capacity to give in a relationship. • Relationships are not always going to be perfectly balanced at any given time.
Speaker 1
And it makes us more likely to be vulnerable with them. All of these behaviors that show investment are going to better our relationships. But we can also talk about this concept called mutuality. And mutuality is different from a lot of the ways that we think about friendship in terms of we might think of it as reciprocity. I reached out this time, you should reach out the next time. But mutuality is like taking a step back to look at the broader dynamics that are going on for each of us and figuring out who’s needs make sense to prioritize in this given situation. So what I mean by that, Maya, is that there might be times when my friend is in a lot of stress, you know, going through mental health issues, just had a newborn baby where I can’t expect Mutuality because I understand that I have greater capacity than they do. And then at other times, you know, they might be investing more in me. Like Michelle Obama also talked about this in her new book, like a relationship is never going to be 5050. And I see that in terms of long term friendships too. There’s going to be a period when you’re giving more, there’s going to be a period when you’re getting more. And it’s like the measure of equality is more so in like the larger scheme of things.
Speaker 2
Yeah, it’s so funny that you mentioned that because one of my best friends recently came over to share that she was pregnant and she and her husband were here and they joked, we’re actually Here to say our goodbyes Maya and Jimmy.Navigating Friendships Through Different Life Stages • Assumptions about friends’ situations can cause friendships to fall apart in different life stages. • Having honest conversations can bridge the gap and keep friendships intact. • Affirming identities different from one’s own is an important part of maintaining strong friendships.
Speaker 1
I love the fact that you had a conversation with your friend because I think part of the reason why friendships tend to tear when we move into these different stages is because we rely On a set of assumptions. Like, oh, this person has a kid, they have no time to talk to me. They don’t want to hear from me or people that have kids being like, my single friend just thinks my life is boring and they don’t want to be around my kid. So I can’t hang out with them. And it’s the set of assumptions that tends to pull us apart. Whereas when we can actually have the conversation, okay, like I would love to still hang out sometime. What does that look like for you? Does it mean I have to come over after the kid is put to bed? How comfortable are you hanging out with the kid around? What are your boundaries around this? I’m just going to assume that you’re too busy to ever talk to me again. You can affirm an identity and a friend, even though it’s not your own, even it’s not one that you would choose for yourself, but realizing that it’s right for them. And that’s actually related to maintaining best friendships over time, maintaining and deepening best friendships over time when you can do that. And so that looks like even if we don’t have the same life experience, let’s still show interest in our differences. Let’s still show interest in what’s it like for you to be a mom or what’s it like for you to live your childless life. What are you doing with that? And instead of assuming that because we have this difference, it’s not something that we can connect on because we do look for friendships for commonality, but also for expansion.Learning to Address Conflict in Friendships • Intimacy involves addressing problems and working through issues. • Friendship also requires skills to work through conflict. • Conflict can lead to reconciliation. • Frame conversations around active love and express anxieties to maintain intimacy.
Speaker 1
Then you have a president that whenever a problem comes up, we know that we can actually address it and make it better instead of our only options being to just injure or walk away. And so I just was like, hmm, maybe I actually need to address problems with my friends. And that was another way where I compartmentalize intimacy, right? Because I knew in my romantic partnerships that I was going to have to address problems and work through issues and you’re about marriage is hard. You’re going to have to work through all these problems together and not realizing that part of intimacy is conflict. And so friendship is also going to require the same set of skills. And the other thing that I realized was that I was conflating conflict with combat when in fact conflict could look like reconciliation. And so it was me learning to do things like frame the conversation as an active love. Like, hey, I want to talk about this because you’re so important to me. And I know you’re having kids and I’m so excited for you. And I have some anxieties about whether we’re going to stay close. So I figured I would bring it up so we could still find a way to stay close through this big life change of ours. And then using I statements like, yeah, I’ve been feeling a little nervous about how this could impact our closeness and then perspective taking, which looks like the mutuality of As you share your feelings, how do you feel? What are you thinking? And then asking for what you need in the future? You know, maybe I’d still like to see you like once a month or twice a month. How would that work out for you?Affirming Love Through Uncomfortable Conversations • Initiating uncomfortable conversations can be an affirmation of love for close relationships. • Effort in conflict resolution can show how much you care for the other person. • Making students feel safe can lead to higher demands from them. • The least confronted person can be the most toxic, according to a psychologist who studies nurses.
Speaker 2
I really resonate with the frame the conversation as an affirmation of love. I’m thinking about one of my closest friends and at times he’s like, can we just let this go? Shunks is my nickname. My friend, he’s like, why do we have to discuss these things? You know, okay, we just let it. And I told him, I was like, hey, you do realize that I don’t put in this effort with everyone, right? It’s because I care so much about you and our communication and our lifelong friendship that I do try to conflict resolve and problem solve. And obviously, like there’s a happy medium, but it was, I think that was really affirming for him. I feel like he changed the whole spin on why it was that I was initiating these kinds of uncomfortable conversations. Absolutely.
Speaker 1
And I think as a professor, I really tried to be intentional about making my students feel safe. And what comes out of that is they demand so much more of me. And I remember hearing from this psychologist who studies nurses, she said the most toxic person is the least confronted. And so if your friends are coming up to you to address an issue, maybe it’s not a sign that you’re a crappy friend, maybe it’s a sign that they feel safe enough to actually bring up a problem Instead of trying to ignore it. Yeah.
Speaker 2
And so that’s a really excellent way of seeing it. You wouldn’t invest the time in someone that you didn’t, you wouldn’t feel vulnerable enough to bring this up with someone that you didn’t in this deep way trust.Affirming Love Through Conversations • Communication and conflict resolution in relationships can be an expression of love and care. • Effort put into conflict resolution can be a way to show care and commitment to a relationship. • Creating a safe environment can lead to higher expectations and demands from others. • Failure to confront toxic behavior can have negative consequences in relationships.
Speaker 2
I really resonate with the frame the conversation as an affirmation of love. I’m thinking about one of my closest friends and at times he’s like, can we just let this go? Shunks is my nickname. My friend, he’s like, why do we have to discuss these things? You know, okay, we just let it. And I told him, I was like, hey, you do realize that I don’t put in this effort with everyone, right? It’s because I care so much about you and our communication and our lifelong friendship that I do try to conflict resolve and problem solve. And obviously, like there’s a happy medium, but it was, I think that was really affirming for him. I feel like he changed the whole spin on why it was that I was initiating these kinds of uncomfortable conversations. Absolutely.
Speaker 1
And I think as a professor, I really tried to be intentional about making my students feel safe. And what comes out of that is they demand so much more of me. And I remember hearing from this psychologist who studies nurses, she said the most toxic person is the least confronted. And so if your friends are coming up to you to address an issue, maybe it’s not a sign that you’re a crappy friend, maybe it’s a sign that they feel safe enough to actually bring up a problem Instead of trying to ignore it. Yeah.
Speaker 2
And so that’s a really excellent way of seeing it. You wouldn’t invest the time in someone that you didn’t, you wouldn’t feel vulnerable enough to bring this up with someone that you didn’t in this deep way trust. Exactly. And so it’s actually an ode to the quality of the friendship that you’re having these conversations.Having a Conversation About Ending a Friendship • Having a conversation about changing needs in a friendship is not cruel. • Try addressing the problem and giving them a chance to repair it before ending the friendship. • Incompatible communication styles can lead to sadness and a friendship not working out.
Speaker 1
So yeah, I suggest having a conversation about it. It’s not cruel. You’re talking about yourself and your own experience and how your needs have changed. And I hope that this conversation happens after you’ve tried to address the problem with them and given them a chance to repair it and it hasn’t necessarily worked unless it’s a big betrayal, Of course. You know, if the big betrayal, then it might be one thing that really has broken the friendship. But if it’s something like smaller on going, like sometimes I feel like in our conversations, you don’t give space to like hear about me and we’re mostly focused on you. Like I hope that you have that conversation before deciding to end the friendship. But if it’s coming to a point where I just like, you know, sometimes I feel like we have really incompatible communication styles and that leaves me leaving our interactions feeling Like kind of sad. And that’s why I’m feeling like this friendship isn’t necessarily working out for us anymore. Maybe you are trying to engage with me in a certain way, but I just haven’t been reading it that way. And so that’s why this friendship really hasn’t felt like it’s working for me. You know, adding like, I just wanted to make sure I was being upfront and transparent with you moving forward. Something like that. It sounds cruel, but it’s a lot less cruel than not giving someone any closure. Yeah.
Speaker 2
One piece of advice I took away from your book is that when a friendship ends for whateverThe Importance of Allowing Grief in the Loss of a Friendship • Disenfranchised grief is when society doesn’t legitimize our loss and we might invalidate our own grief process. • You can’t just suppress grief, and you actually have to feel the grief for it to be released from you. • People who lose really close friends can feel very isolated and preoccupied with the loss for a long period of time because they feel like their loss isn’t valid and their body’s telling them the opposite message. • It’s important to give ourselves space to grieve when a friendship ends for whatever reason.
Speaker 2
One piece of advice I took away from your book is that when a friendship ends for whatever reason, we really need to give ourselves the space to grieve because you talk about the fact that In our society, pain associated with the loss of friendship is devalued. Yeah.
Speaker 1
That’s this term called disenfranchised grief, which is like when society doesn’t legitimize our loss, we can’t legitimize it ourselves internally. And we might invalidate our own grief process. And there’s one thing you should know about grief. It’s that you can’t just suppress it and push it away that you actually have to feel the grief for it to be released from you. And so that’s why I think a lot of people that lose really close friends feel very isolated, feel very alienated, can feel preoccupied with the loss for such a long period of time because They feel like their loss isn’t valid and their loss is significant while their body’s telling them the opposite message that this is a big loss for you, that you have to feel this and That you have to acknowledge it. And so that’s one of the reasons why some people are like friendship breakups hurt even more than divorce or romantic relationship breakup.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I’ve been reading a lot of writing on this topic recently. And there are many, many people who have said that their friendships ending exactly as you say, we’re far more painful than any romantic relationship that came to an end.The
#1 trait people value in a friend: Ego support • The most important trait in a friend is ego support, which involves making someone feel valued and loved. • Being charismatic or funny is not as important as making someone feel they matter. • Friendship is about being loving towards other people, not changing who you are.Speaker 1
So this is a study where people were asked to rate the most important traits in a friend. And I think before studying friendship, I thought that trait was being charismatic or entertaining or funny, that it was about kind of like putting on a show to get people to like you. But the number one trait people valued was this concept, ego support, which is someone making you feel like you matter and someone making you feel really valued and really loved. And I think this message is really hopeful because some people think that if I want to make friends, I have to change fundamentally who I am. And it’s not about who you are. Being friends is about being loving toward other people.
Speaker 2
Hey, thanks so much for listening to this season of a slight change of plans.
