Defining Technology Beyond Artifacts Technology is not just about physical objects like computers or phones, but it extends to tools as well. The definition of technology can be broad, as seen in the idea of technology as an extension of the body. This broader perspective challenges common modern cultural notions, like referring to the tech industry or being āin techā, highlighting the complexity of defining technology. Philosophers suggest that technology encompasses any tool, including writing, which was considered technology before the digital age. Ultimately, technology is viewed as a dynamic process rather than just static artifacts.
Speaker 2
We wanted to extend upon our last conversation into tech as a process, rather than tech as an artifect. So how itās like dynamic rerses static?
Speaker 1
Yes, cause weāve got quite big on to metaphors and lack off. And we had started to say, tha, definitions of technologyare always fascinating, especially when you start reading the people who have taken on the topic of really trig to define it. And then you look at how we use it in modern culture to say things like the tech industry or, iām in tech, that none of it matches up, because what does that mean?
Speaker 2
I kind of feel linke, tech is a very specific type of thing. Itās like the computer or phone. And when we read the philosophers, i get the sense that itās a lot more broad. Mc lean as this idea of technology as an extension of your body, that shows that any tool can be a technology, even writing itself. Itās not just this literal physical thing.
Speaker 1
Wrihte, the definition of tool is probably more xti do wonder what people used to use the word for before digital mediums came-
Episode AI notes
- Technology is a dynamic process, not just static artifacts
- Focus on content and context over dates when reading
- Embrace digital gardening for continuous updating of knowledge
- Take responsibility for past online content in digital gardening
- Acknowledge the obsession with immortality in online preservation
- Consider the absence of embodiment in artificial intelligence discussions
- Accept suffering and mortality for valuable life lessons
- Reflect on the paradox of human existence and the desire to transcend physical limitations
- Explore the historical influence of the Protestant work ethic on societal expectations
- Reject the notion of self-salvation and focus on grace and diligent work
- Balance inclusivity and efficiency in maintainersā responsibilities
- Foster deeper connections beyond task completion in online communities
Recognize that knowledge resides in people, not just in code TimeĀ 0:00:00
Focus on Reading Content and Context, Not Dates When reading, the focus should be on the content rather than the date it was written. Even though language may change over time, the key is to read and understand the material rather than making quick judgments. Itās essential to tap into tacit knowledge, understanding things deeply even if they canāt be explicitly expressed. The idea of removing dates from web content is gaining traction, with the argument that timeless quality should matter more than the specific date of publication. Providing contextual knowledge without explicit dates can enhance the readerās experience and encourage revisits to the content. Embracing the dynamic nature of online content, where updates and revisions are possible, offers a new perspective beyond the static nature of printed materials.
Speaker 2
When youāre reading, the only thing that matters is, like, what youāre reading. And you can still infer based on life, oh, they use certain words that we donāt use any more rit and you can tell. But you still have to read it instead of just being able to come it at a glancereal ise certain things. All this is related to li tacit knowledge of things that we think we understand, but we canāt express them, yes, because weāv also been talking a bit about this idea of dates on web sites.
Speaker 1
I donāt know if that used to be as prevalent or now, thereās a little bit of a movement towards not dating bo post, ecause thereās an argument that, well, what does it matter what day i wrote It on, if itās good content. But maybe that is just me, you know, liking this idea of having more contextual knowledge around thingsand, and it would be nice if it wasnāt so explicit, right? Does it have to say, you know, august 20, 20 21, r whatever. And instead of some design suggestion on the page that just tells you how old it is, even if itās not precise?
Speaker 2
Yes, not any sense. I wonder how much of it is that i want a right con thent that people will revisit, including myself, maybe before ias can hov implied that when i write something, iām never going to touch It again, and i have a date. And in its actually may be more like print, where youve finished your book. We have this new medium. Letās take advantage of the fact that people will revisit it because of search or recommendations, i might update my thoughts, and i can actually o that.Digital Gardening and the Long-term Maintenance of Knowledge In the digital age, the concept of digital gardening allows for the continuous updating and revising of knowledge, creating an evolving piece of content. While adding ālast updatedā dates to blog posts signifies ongoing maintenance, it also entails a long-term commitment to constantly revising and advancing oneās knowledge. This process can lead to burnout as individuals are tasked with ensuring their past content stays current and relevant.
Speaker 2
We have this new medium. Letās take advantage of the fact that people will revisit it because of search or recommendations, i might update my thoughts, and i can actually o that.
Speaker 1
Or the other way would be with the book, you do, like the second edition, people ave really coronto using, you know, last up dated as dates, which isnāt, like, some enormous innovation. And in the digital gardening, while everyone sort of cotton on to that, is like, oh, wonderful. We can now just put last up dated on our blog posts, which is nice, ecause then it gives that sense of, this is an evolving piece of knowledge iām constantly revising. But itās actually funny, that really gets into maintenance, you know, then itās suddenly becomes a long term obligation to always be going back and revising, and how you are moving Forward with knowledge, if youāre just trying to make sure this ever growing, you know, past self is getting caught up.
Speaker 2
Oh, thatās so funny, because that is really making me think, like, i mean, i guess itās based on the term digial gardening. It is a maintenance thing. And itās like, i wonder when weāre going to start seeing burn out on disi gardening, because itās such a fun thing now, but are you responsible?The Responsibility of Digital Gardening The practice of digital gardening involves constantly revising and updating knowledge, which provides a sense of an evolving piece. However, this continual maintenance can lead to long-term obligations and potential burnout. Digital gardening requires individuals to take responsibility for their past content, as online revisions are possible. This responsibility contrasts with the challenges of public shaming and cancel culture, as opinions shared online can resurface in the future.
Speaker 1
Or the other way would be with the book, you do, like the second edition, people ave really coronto using, you know, last up dated as dates, which isnāt, like, some enormous innovation. And in the digital gardening, while everyone sort of cotton on to that, is like, oh, wonderful. We can now just put last up dated on our blog posts, which is nice, ecause then it gives that sense of, this is an evolving piece of knowledge iām constantly revising. But itās actually funny, that really gets into maintenance, you know, then itās suddenly becomes a long term obligation to always be going back and revising, and how you are moving Forward with knowledge, if youāre just trying to make sure this ever growing, you know, past self is getting caught up.
Speaker 2
Oh, thatās so funny, because that is really making me think, like, i mean, i guess itās based on the term digial gardening. It is a maintenance thing. And itās like, i wonder when weāre going to start seeing burn out on disi gardening, because itās such a fun thing now, but are you responsible? Well, you wrote this on this day, and that was recent you still think that makes you more canibl which is good.
Speaker 1
But i think those are things that you didnāt have to worry about, yes, because now you have the affordance of being able to revise your opinion on line, which has obviously, in a struggle That wi been going through with the internet, you know, like, with people being, y know, cancelled and publicly shamed, and this thing that if you say something once on twitter, itāll Get brought up again ten years ago.Continuous Evolution in Digital Gardening Digital gardening enables continuous evolution of thoughts and opinions online, allowing for revising and updating content. This process contrasts with the lack of forgiveness and room for growth witnessed in public shaming experiences on social media platforms. The concept of digital gardening encourages a dynamic and ongoing process where ideas are not static but can evolve, similar to a garden that requires maintenance and constant care.
Speaker 2
Oh, thatās so funny, because that is really making me think, like, i mean, i guess itās based on the term digial gardening. It is a maintenance thing. And itās like, i wonder when weāre going to start seeing burn out on disi gardening, because itās such a fun thing now, but are you responsible? Well, you wrote this on this day, and that was recent you still think that makes you more canibl which is good.
Speaker 1
But i think those are things that you didnāt have to worry about, yes, because now you have the affordance of being able to revise your opinion on line, which has obviously, in a struggle That wi been going through with the internet, you know, like, with people being, y know, cancelled and publicly shamed, and this thing that if you say something once on twitter, itāll Get brought up again ten years ago. And that weād have no room for, or not enough room for, forgiveness and revision and revised identities, which, like, what is the process of being a human ras, learning new things, changing Your mind. So thatās a lovely affordance of this digital gardening idea, rite that atās always a work in progress. But then even the metaphor rit if we, if we take it a bit more seriously, in gardens, plants die, or you eat them, and your log post notes never die. But wouldnāt that be interesting if if you donāt touch it for five years, itās, like, fades off.Embracing Limitless Existence Understanding mortality is crucial biologically, yet there is a rejection of it in the pursuit of limitless existence. The obsession with immortality is reflected in movements like transhumanism, where individuals aim to avoid death by freezing their brains. This avoidance of death extends to saving everything online indefinitely, possibly symbolizing a desire to live forever. The connection between this obsession with immortality and the trend of digital gardening, where personal blogs aim to exist indefinitely, highlights a common theme of seeking eternal existence.
Speaker 2
Trying to understand, in this case, mortality evendigally is very important, cause thatās happening here biologically. But thatās just not a thing that happens tigaly. Because we donāt want it to. We try really hard to embrace this idea of limitless an maybe that is reflected in our pursuit of never dying. Oh, thatās funny. I hadnāt thought of that connection before.
Speaker 1
Oh, no, kidding. T te singularity movement, and like the transhumanists wanting to live forever and freeze their brains, was it called cotcri or something? Yes, ciogeni, hiogenix. Am, mean, thet theyāre a fascinating group, because itās fulfilling this dream of weāll never die, and weāll just get to live ye, avoiding the fear of death. But i had never made that connection before when i think about our obsession with saving everything, and a day to sentus and everything in the cloud forever, and nothing being deleted. And thatās funny. There could be some sort of extension of us wanting to live forever, and now that thereās this new movement of exploring different ways of being on the internet with personal blogs, If may be thatās striking too high of accord with digital gardening, but thatEmbodiment in AI and Theology of Body The discussion highlights the absence of embodiment in artificial intelligence conversations and questions how a machine, even with a brain, can understand human thought without experiencing physicality. The conversation contrasts traditional Christian thought that emphasizes the importance of the body with modern concepts that often overlook the value of physical existence. It raises questions about the significance of suffering, disease, and imperfection in a non-theistic perspective, challenging the idea of comfort as the ultimate goal.
Speaker 1
And iāve been curious about the whole thing, because thereās no sense of embodiment in any of the a i discussion. Itās just like, oā k, weāre going to build a brain in the machine. And itās really funny, like reading people like polana or everyn weāve been talking about about embodied knowledge. If you have a brain and a machine, how does it know what up and down is and left and right and front and back and heavy and light and the experience of having a body? If it doesnāt have that like it it is itcapable of understanding human thought and rationality and cognition, like on a fundamental level? Thatās like a conversation that never happens. Ana, so, i mean, now im appreciating so much this concept that in traditional christian thoughtie, your saying threās no escape from the body. Thatās not the dream, that thereās still some form of body that is always assumed to be there. And yet, that isnāt the carrying over into more modern forms of ideas of a higher being.
Speaker 2
Yes, not just that itās important, but that the bodyās a good thing. And i think thatās hard to remember. This is hard to talk about, but like a theology of suffering, a theology of a body, what is the point of disease and going through all these struggles, and the fact that weāre not perfect And we decay and die? And i think, in a non theistic view, how can those things be good? And so comfort is our greatest aspiration. And in its hearr i donāt want to say suffering is all good.Embracing Suffering and Acknowledging Mortality Acknowledging the efficacy and purpose of suffering is emphasized by various traditions like Buddhism and Stoicism, which teach the importance of engaging with suffering to learn resilience and valuable life lessons. Modern cultureās focus on comfort and avoidance of discomfort, especially the fear of death, reflects a denial of the inevitability of suffering and mortality. The book āThe Denial of Deathā by Ernst is noted for its profound impact on perspectives, urging individuals to confront mortality and embrace the challenges of life.
Speaker 1
Right? I donāt want to have to say tha the efficacy of suffering or the practicality of itt so many traditions that have pointed out how there is a purpose to suffering can be good in lots of ways. Man hasa like important role to play. Ll, this is the entire buddhism, right? Like life is suffering. Or yet, of stoicism, right? Goes on about this alone, that youāre supposed to engage in certain degrees of suffering to teach yourself that itās inevitable, and you can withstand it, and itās not the worst thing In the world to feel discomfort aand it has important things to teach you. I really love that line of thinking a lot. But then maybe only because so much of dominant culture now denies that, that it is like the pursuit of comfort, the pursuit of escaping the bodytha you try to avoid pain, decay and eventual Death. Fear of sprinting away from death at all costs is like the kind of mo of modern culture.
Speaker 2
Yes, i was recently talking about this earlier too. We donāt know how to die. Well, we spend so much money.
Speaker 1
And for good reason. We want to stay around loved ones. But at what cost? Yes, it makes me think back, too. Have you ever heard of a book called the denial of death. Oh, who wrote it? Ernst. I read it as as like, maybe an 18 year old, and it really was one of those books where it just sort of shifts your whole world view, one of those you sort of live with the book for a while.Denial of Death The book āDenial of Deathā discusses the paradox of human existence, where we are both physical beings with mortal bodies and intellectual beings with the desire to transcend our physical limitations. The author theorizes that this conflict between our physical and intellectual selves leads to discomfort and shame, as we try to distance ourselves from our animalistic nature and focus on our god-like mental capacities. The book explores psychological and philosophical concepts, influencing the readerās worldview and prompting reflection on human essence.
Speaker 2
Yes, i was recently talking about this earlier too. We donāt know how to die. Well, we spend so much money.
Speaker 1
And for good reason. We want to stay around loved ones. But at what cost? Yes, it makes me think back, too. Have you ever heard of a book called the denial of death. Oh, who wrote it? Ernst. I read it as as like, maybe an 18 year old, and it really was one of those books where it just sort of shifts your whole world view, one of those you sort of live with the book for a while. I think the guy who wrote it might have been more of a psychologist, but really itās philosophy, an hed this theory that what makes us uncomfortable is that weāre both gods and worm s, That we have thi sycphysical body that we have to deal with. He doesnāt put it in those terms, but thatās the implication, this physicality, that we will eventually rotten, be eaten by worms, but that in our heads, weāre these gods who can come Up with intellectual theories and try to escape our bodies and invent technologies that extend them in different ways and renew them. And that weāre unable to come to terms with these two contradictions andeor some really interesting theories. Gets may be froudian in places, but you know, why we try to hide more animalistic sides of ourselves, why we feel shame when we have to engage in bodily functions? That we want to deny, that we have this animalistic body and weāre just trying to live in the mental, god world.Work, Morality, and Ethical Beliefs Ethical and moral language around work highlights the societal expectation that not working is immoral, rooted in a belief system emphasizing the Protestant work ethic and the American Dream. This mindset, historically influenced by the churchās emphasis on asceticism and virtuous living, is ingrained in modern culture. The idea of working for oneself contrasts with the concept of being saved by grace, leading to a perpetual struggle of trying to earn salvation through hard work and self-control.
Speaker 1
There is lots of ethical, moral language we use around work and who should work, and the obligation to work, that if youāre not working, youāre being immoral in some way, and you need To get up and do your part. And also that we still, of course, talk about or indulgences being bad. You really need to rol yourself when you really need to limit what you do. So these things show up all the time, just consistently through modern culture. And that you can trace it back to a certain belief system. That type of thinking is so, i guess, normal like you ānāt even have to be protestent in american dream.
Speaker 2
And itās a hard meant to get rid of, i suppose, right? An historically, this purity type of idea comes from the church itself, where if you want to live a godly life, you have to live in the monastery rit everythingās about asceticism and Makingou sure that your life is very discipline. But then luther is kind of saying, why do you think that you can choose to do whatever you want? We should all live virtuous lives. And so that causes everyone to blake. Oh, we all need self control. Self help goes against the idea of christian religion, were that means you are working for yourself. Riht, itās supposed to be. Knowing that you are saved by grace will cause you to work hard because you appreciate whatās been given. And you even know about this issue. And itās still a problem of, like, trying to save yourself, trying to work really hard, hoping that if i do all the right things, everything will be ok.Rejecting the Notion of Self-Salvation Summary: The concept of self-salvation, rooted in the idea of living a godly life through asceticism, is challenged by the belief that all should lead virtuous lives. This rejection of self-salvation opposes the notion of working hard to save oneself, emphasizing instead the appreciation of grace and working diligently in response. The modern manifestation of this idea can be observed in the self-help industry, behavior sciences, and hustle culture, all echoing the Protestant work ethic and the pursuit of salvation, albeit in the form of material success.
Speaker 2
And itās a hard meant to get rid of, i suppose, right? An historically, this purity type of idea comes from the church itself, where if you want to live a godly life, you have to live in the monastery rit everythingās about asceticism and Makingou sure that your life is very discipline. But then luther is kind of saying, why do you think that you can choose to do whatever you want? We should all live virtuous lives. And so that causes everyone to blake. Oh, we all need self control. Self help goes against the idea of christian religion, were that means you are working for yourself. Riht, itās supposed to be. Knowing that you are saved by grace will cause you to work hard because you appreciate whatās been given. And you even know about this issue. And itās still a problem of, like, trying to save yourself, trying to work really hard, hoping that if i do all the right things, everything will be ok.
Speaker 1
I mean, i do love all the ways that it shows up in modern culture outside of any religious connotation. And when you talk about the self help industry er, or especially the obsession around his habit forming, you know, the behavior sciences a all the books thit came out, yes, write atomic Habits, tiny habits. And even write like boot strapping and hustle culture, int all just reeks of protestant work ethic, all of it, right? Youār go into the incubator, and you have to sleep three hours a night get your start up going. You know, what are people chasing except for some sense of salvation at the end, where they think, well, if i do this, iām going to have been ethically in the right by the end of this. And in the capitalist cosmology of this system, the reward is money instead of salvation.Rejecting the Notion of Self-Salvation The concept of self-salvation, rooted in the idea of living a godly life through asceticism, is challenged by the belief that all should lead virtuous lives. This rejection of self-salvation opposes the notion of working hard to save oneself, emphasizing instead the appreciation of grace and working diligently in response. The modern manifestation of this idea can be observed in the self-help industry, behavior sciences, and hustle culture, all echoing the Protestant work ethic and the pursuit of salvation, albeit in the form of material success.
Speaker 2
And itās a hard meant to get rid of, i suppose, right? An historically, this purity type of idea comes from the church itself, where if you want to live a godly life, you have to live in the monastery rit everythingās about asceticism and Makingou sure that your life is very discipline. But then luther is kind of saying, why do you think that you can choose to do whatever you want? We should all live virtuous lives. And so that causes everyone to blake. Oh, we all need self control. Self help goes against the idea of christian religion, were that means you are working for yourself. Riht, itās supposed to be. Knowing that you are saved by grace will cause you to work hard because you appreciate whatās been given. And you even know about this issue. And itās still a problem of, like, trying to save yourself, trying to work really hard, hoping that if i do all the right things, everything will be ok.
Speaker 1
I mean, i do love all the ways that it shows up in modern culture outside of any religious connotation. And when you talk about the self help industry er, or especially the obsession around his habit forming, you know, the behavior sciences a all the books thit came out, yes, write atomic Habits, tiny habits. And even write like boot strapping and hustle culture, int all just reeks of protestant work ethic, all of it, right? Youār go into the incubator, and you have to sleep three hours a night get your start up going. You know, what are people chasing except for some sense of salvation at the end, where they think, well, if i do this, iām going to have been ethically in the right by the end of this. And in the capitalist cosmology of this system, the reward is money instead of salvation.Balancing Inclusivity and Efficiency Maintainers often face the challenge of balancing inclusivity by involving a wider range of contributors while ensuring efficiency by working with a smaller, more knowledgeable group. The dilemma lies in the desire to welcome diverse contributors while also managing the overwhelm that comes with having too many participants. The issue of over-participation is real, as inviting numerous individuals to contribute can lead to time constraints and difficulties in managing limited resources. Maintainers struggle with trying to be inclusive and welcoming while also recognizing the need for systematic changes to address various issues efficiently. Ultimately, the burden falls on maintainers to handle bug fixes, fundraising, mental health management for themselves and their team.
Speaker 1
I mean, do you really feel the obligation to really, lik, cast the net wider and, like, bringin a larger group of people, even though youāre also struggling with what nadia called the Stadium issue, where you have too many people wanting to contribute and you canāt. Itās the overwhelm of likeoka, not this many people can try to contribute one small thing. We need a smaller corps group who have more context to do it.
Speaker 2
Yes. So the desire for gase may pe as possible thing. Thatās always ar iām trying not to think that way, but itās hard, notto, because thatās just our culture. Her point about over participation is real. If you invite a thousand people in, even not just to report issues, but to contribute, itās just, itās time that you have to take. We already talked about this earlier of we have ies. We have limited time. Thatās the currency. If you were just looking at some one else that was a maintainer that wanted to get a hundred volunteers, youāre just like, what are you doing? But on the inside, youāre like, well, i want to be helpful and welcoming and inclusive. We have a diversity prom we have so many issues in terms of like, whoās involved, and you tring to solve all of them by yourself for your particular project. Soh same as many other things. We need systematic change there too. But i guess the burden is always on the maintainer to fix all the bugs, to get the people to fund rais to manage your own mental health and the mental health of ten mates.Fostering Connection Beyond Task Completion The existing platforms like GitHub do not naturally facilitate deeper connections among its community members, with interactions primarily limited to filing issues and committing code. Encouraging meaningful connections through video calls in a seamless way could enhance relationships and engagement. Currently, organizing meetings over video calls on different platforms involves multiple apps and manual coordination, which hinders the establishment of genuine human connections. There is a need to explore new affordances on these platforms that streamline the process of creating meaningful relationships within the community, akin to the concept of church memberships in open source projects, where contributions do not require individuals to become maintainers and coercion is avoided.
Speaker 2
Exactly the way it works just does not allow for that. I just donāt see how they foster that kind of environment, because everything is a list. Like the inner face doesnāt give you an opportunity to understand people. You have to go out your way to sweter, slack discord to do a video call, which is not that grade either. And i donāt want to say the and all is like imperson conversation. But clearly thereās something there crat that helps bring u connection, creates a relationship that goes beyond simply like, oh, i made tapper. Now i feel connected witthis project. And thereās something there, like the hole i stay for the community. Think, what?
Speaker 1
Why do people say, i love that point, that the affordances of get hub are not solving the problem becauseth the actions you can take an get hub are to file issues and commit code, like thatās What itās designed for. How would you do it? Encouraging something like video calls between people who are members of the community or want to be members of the community, in a very frictionless way. Whereas yet itās hilarious right now that if you do want to meeting, fully connex with someone over video, you dem back and forth, and someone sets up a separate zoom meeting, and you Have to make sure theyāve the swere to the zoo meeting, and you to send over a link at the right time. And if to do the time difference calculations separately in your own calendar, and you end up involving four to five aps that are not integrated with one another to patch together a human Connection over video, which isnāt even like the ideal. And none of the affordances of the apse make that process any easier. And if what people really want is that meaning full, embodied connection to a project, in what other ways could there be affordances on these platforms that like make that happen?
Speaker 2
Yes, we had an episode on membership when i talked about church memers. And we need a similar concept in open sorce, where, ike, every contribution you make doesnāt mean that they want to become maintainer, and they donāt have to beand no oneās trying to Force themKnowledge Resides in People, Not Just in Code The assumption that knowledge solely resides in code is flawed. Just like historical cultural beliefs, we tend to consider written text as the ultimate truth, neglecting the need for human explanation. The example of outsourcing semiconductor production highlights that although the end products are made in certain countries, the true knowledge lies in the minds of the people working in those factories. Rebuilding this knowledge if needed in oneās own country would be a time-consuming process, possibly taking years. This insight underscores the significance of valuing and retaining human knowledge alongside technological advancements.
Speaker 1
Bcause itās such an assumption that the code is the knowledge. I mean, that fets would like the historical cultural beliefs, right, that we just think, if itās written down in text, itās the truth, and itās all there is, and we donāt need a human to Explain it to us.
Speaker 2
And quoted in the text, i think thatās what dan was trying to say in his post about technology. I mean, he was specifically talking about semi conductors. If i get his point, that western or just countries in general, outsource that to china and different countries. So even though weāre the ones benefit from making the end product, we have no idea, in a way, how to make semiconuctors. And maybe you can recover the documents, and you have the tools and the machines in the factories, but the people that are working there, they know things, and itās in the minds of those People. And if thatās true, if you decide to day, like weāre going tostart making our own factories about all the stuff, well to build up that knowledge through people is going to take a really Long time, right? Years. And so in some sense, theyāre ahead in that way. And i think maybe thatās why the concept of out sourcing is so interesting.
