The Importance of the Spiritual Component In the middle of the book, I forgot the author was discussing music as they gradually started addressing a broader audience. A chapter called The Unseen explores the idea that artists are at a disadvantage without a spiritual component. The spiritual component refers to a belief in something greater or different, such as a universal power or superstitions like avoiding walking under a ladder.
Malcolm Gladwell
Did feel like about halfway through, I began to forget you were in music and I felt like you were starting to talk more broadly about everyone. Itâs hard to escape the assumption that this is going to be a book about music at the very beginning. But thereâs a couple, I want to start reading to you some things and getting you to talk about them a little bit. One is, without the spiritual component, this is from the chapter called The Unseen. Without the spiritual component, the artist works with a crucial disadvantage. Itâs a really, really interesting idea. And one, weirdly that I hadnât heard that phrase that way before. What is the disadvantage here? And what are you meaning by the term spiritual component?
Rick Rubin
The spiritual component is belief in something bigger, something different, whatever it is. It could be believing in some universal power, believing that if you walk under a ladder have bad luck you know it could it could be anything thatBelief Is That Way Experiencing the death of a loved one unexpectedly opened up a spiritual side in me, which I never anticipated. It allowed me to see things beyond the physical and believe in the power of belief itself. This experience has been one of the most significant in my life, showing me that what you believe in may not be true, but it has the power to push you beyond your limits.
Rick Rubin
You say that based on that, you have been able to live at times in a deeper way based on that experience? Did it open something in you to allow you to see more than you saw before? Yes, absolutely.
Malcolm Gladwell
I would count that experience as one of the most crucial of my life. And in a million years, I would never have thought that the death of someone I love more than anyone else would open me up in that way.
Rick Rubin
That would be an example of touching something, I would say spiritual, something unseen, something from beyond, something that wouldnât have made sense to you before it happened. If someone would have described it to you, you might have thought, that doesnât really make sense to me. But then you got to feel it, and then you understood. And belief is that way. Thereâs a part in the book that talks about what you believe in doesnât have to be true. That doesnât really matter. But belief has a power. And belief allows you to go further than you thought you can go.Finding Solutions in the Prosaic Details of Your Existence Look around in the moment and pay attention to the details. The solutions and clues you seek are right there, if youâre open to them. Instead of obsessing over a problem, hold the question in your mind and do something else. This frees your mind and allows the answers to come to you. So go for a walk, swim, or take a drive and let the solutions find you.
Malcolm Gladwell
No, no, youâre talking about in the moment. Here and now. Look around, and you can find kind of solutions, clues, what have you, just in the kind of most prosaic details of your existence at that moment, like in the room where you are. Yes.
Rick Rubin
Now, I canât say it works 100% of the time. Itâs not saying that. Itâs saying that if you live in a way where youâre really open and paying attention to everything around you, the answers youâre looking for are knocking on the door all the time. They donât come when youâre searching for them. They come when youâre open and allow them to come. One of the things that I talk about in the book is if you have a problem to solve, instead of thinking about it, hold the question in your awareness and go for a walk or swim or do something That takes your mind off of what youâre trying to solve and engages you in something else. And most often, when youâre engaged in something else, the part of you thatâs in the way of solving the problem loses its control over you. And you, through whatever it is, you can find a way to go for a drive, something whereThe value of imperfection and humanity in art Perfection isnât what weâre truly after; itâs the emotion and humanity in our work. Take the Leaning Tower of Pisa, for example - it was a mistake but now a popular attraction. Handmade Persian rugs have flaws, yet they possess a unique humanity. The numbers five and eight are chosen randomly, symbolizing the idea of not aiming for perfection. Our goal is to create art that feels good, whether it leans closer to perfection or moves away from it. Can you recall a project youâve worked on?
Rick Rubin
We get hung up on the idea of perfection. And we think perfection is what weâre looking for, when really what weâre looking for is something with emotion in it, something with humanity in it. And humanity has flaws. So we can use the example of the Leaning Tower of Pisa. At the time that it was made, it was a mistake. And now itâs one of the most visited buildings in the world. And itâs visited purely because of the mistake. You know, we collect old Persian rugs that were handmade and that have been lived in, whereas you can buy a new machine-made rug now thatâs more perfect than that, but it doesnât have The same humanity in it. And the reason I use the example of five and eight are, theyâre random choices. Those are not specific. Those are not, if you have five, you got to get to eight for it to work. But itâs a way of thinking where weâre not looking to make it perfect. Weâre looking for the soulful version that could either be going further towards perfection or backwards away from it. And it might just as well be backwards away from it for it to feel good when weâre making art.
Malcolm Gladwell
Can you think about a project youâve worked on that youCrying over a Go documentary Watching a documentary about Go made me cry. I realized that the computer won not because it knew more, but because it knew less than the Grandmaster. It only played by the rules, without any cultural baggage. It made me think about the nature of learning and playing the game.
Rick Rubin
Did. And it wasnât, I didnât read about it. I watched a documentary about it. Oh, you watched a documentary. Yeah, I was watching a documentary about it, and it made me cry. And when I cried, I didnât understand it at first. It took a while. I thought about it more. My reaction forced me to think about it more. Itâs like, why am I crying? Iâm not invested. I donât play Go. Iâm not invested in this story at all, yet Iâm crying. And originally, my first thought was, am i crying because machines are beating humans no thatâs not what it is iâm crying because the way that the computer won wasnât by knowing more Than the grandmaster the computer won because it knew less than the grandmaster and thatâs what made me cry itâs that the computer didnât have all of the baggage and cultural dogma of How youâre supposed to play go it only knew these are the rules of the game iâm playing the rules of the game And it was fascinating to me because it made me realize if we can let goAI doesnât carry the conventions and history that constrain human play â it operates without the baggage of tradition or the emotionalities that tie different aspects of life together. This makes it more efficient at finding connections, but raises a question: is efficiency what humans want from themselves? The AI is less experienced than the grandmaster precisely because itâs less human. Human collaboration matters because stories worth telling are the ones embedded in lived experience, not pure optimization. ecology-of-technology storytellingThe Unique Human Experience of Playing Go When human beings play Go, they are not just playing the game. Unlike computers, who see the game in its entirety, humans play a limited version influenced by their assumptions, habits, and culture. This limited version, with all its flaws and limitations, is what makes playing Go so heart-rending and fascinating.
Malcolm Gladwell
Funny because I didnât see this documentary. And when I read about your description of how much you were moved by that moment, I was also moved, but not for the reasons you were. I was moved because what that told me was that when human beings play Go, theyâre not playing Go. In other words, the computer saw Go in its entirety, in a technical sense, saw every conceivable move you could make, made one that would never have occurred to us. When human beings play Go, weâre playing this very small parochial version governed not just by the rules and potentials of the board, but by our own assumptions, habits, practices, Cultural. And I actually kind of love that about us. In other words, that weâve colonized and humanized and brought all of our kind of heart-rending limitations even to something like a board game. Thatâs very moving to me.Our playing bears the imprint of our personal limitation. Itâs the embodiment that feels human. How to amplify the humanity? There is actually a lot of humanity that is unsaid because the connections arenât left to be drawn. enzymeThe Language of Our Culture Is Violent Marshall Rosenberg, a renowned teacher who unfortunately passed away, wrote a book called Nonviolent Communication. While the book may not be great, there is an audio called Speaking Peace that is recommended. Additionally, watching his videos on YouTube provides valuable insights. The book discusses how our cultureâs language is violent, not only towards others but also towards ourselves. It highlights the negative impact of phrases like âI should have done thatâ which only make us feel wrong. Instead, we should focus on doing our best and being kind to ourselves.
Rick Rubin
Thereâs a teacher named Marshall Rosenberg who wrote a book, which is not a great book, called Nonviolent Communication. And heâs a great teacher, but heâs not a great writer. And he passed recently, unfortunately. But I would suggest people, if theyâre interested in Marshall Rosenberg, there is an audio called Speaking Peace that is better than the book. And then watch videos of him on YouTube. Just because the book, I found the book hard to understand. But itâs basically all about this. The language of our culture is violent. And itâs not just violent towards each other. Itâs violent towards ourselves. Every time we say, I should have done that. When you say, I should, itâs called a make wrong. So by saying, I should have done it means I was wrong. This is the right way to do it. When at the time you were doing the best you could. So when at the time youâre doing the best you can to make yourself wrong, isnât helpful.
Malcolm Gladwell
Yeah.
Rick Rubin
AndThe First Time Ever I Saw Your Face The author discusses how reframing songs as devotionals to God can change their meaning. Johnny Cashâs song âThe First Time Ever I Saw Your Faceâ and Roger McGwinâs âMr. Tamborine Manâ stand out as examples. This revelation highlights the power of interpretation and the impact it can have on our perception of music.
Malcolm Gladwell
Couple other smaller things. Thereâs a couple of moments in this book where I scribbled in the margins, who is Rick talking about? But there was one that I wanted you to, if you donât mind, you talked about how you were working with an artist on a song, which was a love song, and you were trying to solve the problem. And you finally solved the problem by telling the artist, donât think of a romantic partner. Think of it as a devotional to God. Who was the song and who was the artist? Can you tell me?
Rick Rubin
That was Johnny Cash, and the song was The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face.
Malcolm Gladwell
Oh, my goodness. Oh, thatâs so interesting. I know that version so well. Thatâs totally blowing my mind. Because thatâs what it listens like. Oh, my God, thatâs genius, Rick. That is genius.
Rick Rubin
And it was also⊠Oh, and I interviewed Roger McGuinn the other day, and he talked about the first Bird single was Mr. Tambourine Man. And out of the blue, he said, yeah, when I sang it in the studio, no one knows this, but I sang it as a devotional to God. I said, but the lyrics arenât about that. I was like, yeah, I know. But thatâs how I was able to sing it and feel it. And it blew my mind.
Malcolm Gladwell
Oh, thatâs really interesting. This is why I miss liner notes so much. I feel like this is the function of⊠But Ray, those two facts about first time I saw your face and Mr. Tamarine, man, those both radically changed the way you hear those songs. Yes. The
