- Episode AI notes
- The chapter titled The Unseen discusses the importance of the spiritual component for artists. The spiritual component refers to a belief in something bigger or different.
- Experiencing profound loss can lead to a deeper understanding of oneself. Belief has a power that can enable individuals to surpass their own limitations.
- In the moment, pay attention to the details of your existence and your surroundings. Being open and aware of everything around you can lead to finding answers. Taking a break from thinking about a problem and engaging in another activity can help solve it. Being engaged in something else can help overcome obstacles in problem-solving.
- Perfection is not necessarily what we should strive for, as it often lacks emotion and humanity. Flaws and mistakes can lead to unexpected success and appreciation. Handmade items with history and imperfections can have more value than perfect, machine-made ones. The focus should be on creating art that is soulful, whether it leans towards perfection or deviates from it.
- The speaker watched a documentary that made them cry. They initially didn’t understand their reaction and had to think about it more. The speaker cried not because machines were beating humans, but because the computer won by knowing less than the Grandmaster. The computer only knew the rules of the game and played accordingly.
- When human beings play Go, they’re not playing Go. The computer saw Go in its entirety in a technical sense. Human beings play a small parochial version of Go. Human beings are governed by their assumptions, habits, practices, and culture. Human beings have brought their limitations to a board game. This is moving.
- Marshall Rosenberg, a teacher and author of Nonviolent Communication, emphasized the importance of using nonviolent language. Rosenberg’s audio called Speaking Peace is considered better than his book. The language of our culture can be violent towards others and ourselves. Using phrases like ‘I should’ is called a make wrong and can be unhelpful.
The artist Johnny Cash used a unique approach to solve a problem with a love song, turning it into a devotional to God. Roger McGwin approached his song ‘Mr. Tamborine Man’ as a devotional to God, despite the lyrics not reflecting that meaning. These revelations about the songs ‘First Time I Saw Your Face’ and ‘Mr. Tamborine Man’ provide a new perspective when listening to them. Time 0:00:00
The Importance of the Spiritual Component Summary: In the middle of the book, I forgot the author was discussing music as they gradually started addressing a broader audience. A chapter called The Unseen explores the idea that artists are at a disadvantage without a spiritual component. The spiritual component refers to a belief in something greater or different, such as a universal power or superstitions like avoiding walking under a ladder.
Speaker 1
I did feel like about halfway through, I began to forget you were in music and I felt like you were starting to talk more broadly about everyone. It’s hard to escape the assumption that this is going to be a book about music at the very beginning. But there’s a couple, I want to start reading to you some things and getting you to talk about them a little bit. One is without the spiritual components, this is from the chapter called The Unseen, without the spiritual component, the artist works with a crucial disadvantage. It’s a really, really interesting idea. And one, really that I hadn’t heard that phrase that way before, what is the disadvantage here and what is, what do you meaning by the term spiritual component?
Speaker 2
The spiritual component is belief in something bigger, something different. Whatever it is, it could be believing in some universal power, believing that if you walk under a ladder, you’ll have bad luck.Belief Is That Way Summary: Experiencing the death of a loved one unexpectedly opened up a spiritual side in me, which I never anticipated. It allowed me to see things beyond the physical and believe in the power of belief itself. This experience has been one of the most significant in my life, showing me that what you believe in may not be true, but it has the power to push you beyond your limits.
Speaker 2
Would you say that based on that, you have been able to live at times in a deeper way based on that experience? Did it open something in you to allow you to see more than you saw before?
Speaker 1
Yes, absolutely. I would count that experience as one of the most crucial of my life. In the million years, I would never have thought that the death of someone I love more than anyone else would open me up in that way.
Speaker 2
That would be an example of touching something, I would say, spiritual, something unseen, something from beyond, something that wouldn’t have made sense to you before it happened. If someone would have described it to you, you might have thought that doesn’t really make sense to me. But then you got to feel it and then you understood. Belief is that way. There’s a part in the book that talks about what you believe in doesn’t have to be true. That doesn’t really matter. But belief has a power. Belief allows you to go further than you thought you can go.Finding Solutions in the Prosaic Details of Your Existence Summary: Look around in the moment and pay attention to the details. The solutions and clues you seek are right there, if you’re open to them. Instead of obsessing over a problem, hold the question in your mind and do something else. This frees your mind and allows the answers to come to you. So go for a walk, swim, or take a drive and let the solutions find you.
Speaker 1
You’re talking about in the moment, look around and you can find solutions, clues, what have you just in the most prosaic details of your existence at that moment, in the room where you Are. Yes.
Speaker 2
Now, I can’t say it works 100% of the time. It’s not saying that. It’s saying that if you live in a way where you really open and paying attention to everything around you, the answers you’re looking for are knocking on the door all the time. They don’t come when you’re searching for them. They come when you’re open and allow them to come. One of the things that I talk about in the book is if you have a problem to solve, instead of thinking about it, hold the question in your awareness and go for a walk or swim or do something That takes your mind off of what you’re trying to solve and engages you in something else. Most often when you’re engaged in something else, the part of you that’s in the way of solving the problem loses its control over you. Whatever it is, you can find a way to go for a drive.The value of imperfection and humanity in art Summary: Perfection isn’t what we’re truly after; it’s the emotion and humanity in our work. Take the Leaning Tower of Pisa, for example - it was a mistake but now a popular attraction. Handmade Persian rugs have flaws, yet they possess a unique humanity. The numbers five and eight are chosen randomly, symbolizing the idea of not aiming for perfection. Our goal is to create art that feels good, whether it leans closer to perfection or moves away from it. Can you recall a project you’ve worked on?
Speaker 2
We get hung up on the idea of perfection. And we think perfection is what we’re looking for. When really what we’re looking for is something with emotion in it, something with humanity in it. And humanity has flaws. So we can use the example of the leaning power of Pisa. At the time that it was made, it was a mistake. And now it’s one of the most visited buildings in the world. And it’s visited purely because of the mistake. You know, we collect old Persian rugs that were handmade and that had been lived in, whereas you can buy a new machine-made rug now that’s more perfect than that. But it doesn’t have the same humanity in it. And the reason I use the example of five and eight are, they’re random choices. Those are not specific. Those are not, if you have five, you got to get to eight for it to work. But it’s a way of thinking where we’re not looking to make it perfect. We’re looking for the soulful version. That could either be going further towards perfection or backwards away from it. And it might just as well be backwards away from it for it to feel good when we’re making art.
Speaker 1
Can you think about a project you’ve worked on thatCrying over a Go documentary Summary: Watching a documentary about Go made me cry. I realized that the computer won not because it knew more, but because it knew less than the Grandmaster. It only played by the rules, without any cultural baggage. It made me think about the nature of learning and playing the game.
Speaker 2
I did. And it was, it wasn’t, I didn’t read about it. I watched the documentary about it.
Speaker 1
Oh, you watched the documentary.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I was watching a documentary about it and it made me cry and when I cried, I didn’t understand it at first. It took a while. I thought about it more. My reaction forced me to think about it more. It’s like, why am I crying? I’m not invested. I don’t play Go. I’m not invested in this story at all. Yet I’m crying. And originally my first thought was, am I crying because machines are beating humans? No, that’s not what it is. I’m crying because the way that the computer won wasn’t by knowing more than the Grandmaster. The computer won because it knew less than the Grandmaster. And that’s what made me cry. It’s that the computer didn’t have all of the baggage and cultural dogma of how you’re supposed to play Go. It only knew these are the rules of the game. I’m playing the rules of the game. And it was fascinating to me because it made me realize if we canAI doesn’t carry the conventions and history that constrain human play — it operates without the baggage of tradition or the emotionalities that tie different aspects of life together. This makes it more efficient at finding connections, but raises a question: is efficiency what humans want from themselves? The AI is less experienced than the grandmaster precisely because it’s less human. Human collaboration matters because stories worth telling are the ones embedded in lived experience, not pure optimization. ecology-of-technology storytellingThe Unique Human Experience of Playing Go Summary: When human beings play Go, they are not just playing the game. Unlike computers, who see the game in its entirety, humans play a limited version influenced by their assumptions, habits, and culture. This limited version, with all its flaws and limitations, is what makes playing Go so heart-rending and fascinating.
Speaker 1
It’s funny because I didn’t see this documentary. And when I read about your description of how much you were moved by that moment, I was also moved, but not for the reasons you were. I was moved because what that told me was that when human beings play Go, they’re not playing Go. In other words, the computer saw Go in its entirety in a technical sense. So every conceivable move you could make made one that would never have occurred to us. When human beings play Go, we’re playing this very small parochial version, governed not just by the rules and potentials of the board, but by our own assumptions, habits, practices, Cultural, and I actually kind of love that about us. In other words, that we’ve colonized, and humanized and brought all of our kind of heart-rending limitations, even to something like a board game. And that’s very moving to me.Our playing bears the imprint of our personal limitation. It’s the embodiment that feels human. How to amplify the humanity? There is actually a lot of humanity that is unsaid because the connections aren’t left to be drawn. enzymeThe Language of Our Culture Is Violent Summary: Marshall Rosenberg, a renowned teacher who unfortunately passed away, wrote a book called Nonviolent Communication. While the book may not be great, there is an audio called Speaking Peace that is recommended. Additionally, watching his videos on YouTube provides valuable insights. The book discusses how our culture’s language is violent, not only towards others but also towards ourselves. It highlights the negative impact of phrases like ‘I should have done that’ which only make us feel wrong. Instead, we should focus on doing our best and being kind to ourselves.
Speaker 2
Absolutely, there’s a teacher named Marshall Rosenberg who wrote a book which is not a great book called Nonviolent Communication. And he’s a great teacher, but he’s not a great writer and he passed recently, unfortunately. But I would suggest people, if they’re interested in Marshall Rosenberg, there is an audio called Speaking Peace that is better than the book. And then watch videos of him on YouTube, just because the book, I found the book hard to understand. But it’s basically all about this. The language of our culture is violent. And it’s not just violent towards each other, it’s violent towards ourselves. Every time we say, I should have done that. When you say, I should, it’s called a make wrong. So by saying, I should have done it means I was wrong, this is the right way to do it. When at the time you were doing the best you could. So when at the time you’re doing the best you can to make yourself wrong isn’t helpful.The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face Summary: The author discusses how reframing songs as devotionals to God can change their meaning. Johnny Cash’s song ‘The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face’ and Roger McGwin’s ‘Mr. Tamborine Man’ stand out as examples. This revelation highlights the power of interpretation and the impact it can have on our perception of music.
Speaker 1
Yeah, a couple other smaller things. There’s a couple of moments in this book where I scribbled in the margins. Who is Rick talking about? But it was one that I wanted you to, if you don’t mind. You talked about how you were working with an artist on a song, which was a love song. And you were trying to solve the problem. And you finally solve the problem by telling the artist, don’t think of a romantic partner, think of it as a devotional to God. Who is the song and who is the artist? Can you tell me? That was Johnny Cash.
Speaker 2
And the song was the first time ever I saw your face.
Speaker 1
Oh my goodness. Oh, that’s so interesting. I know that version so well. That’s totally belonging to my mind. Because that’s what it listens like. Oh my God, that’s genius, Rick. That is genius.
Speaker 2
And it was also, oh, and I interviewed Roger McGwin the other day, and he talked about the first bird single was Mr. Tamborine Man. And out of the blue, he said, yeah, when I sang it in the studio, no one knows this, but I sang it as a devotional to God. I said, but the lyrics aren’t about that. I was like, yeah, I know. But that’s how I was able to sing it and feel it. And it blew my mind.
Speaker 1
Oh, that’s really interesting. This is why I miss liner notes so much. I feel like this is the function of, but right, those two facts about first time I saw your face and Mr. Tamborine Man, those both radically changed the way you hear those songs. Yes.
