Between the Lines - Ep 31 Special Edition Featuring an Interview With Raymond Carr

Patrick Boatwright
And this is a key interesting moment that I highlighted in the sermon that, you know, the author goes out of his way to say, okay, Solomon did all these great things. He built the temple. He had all these great building projects. And he says, this is the record of forced labor that Solomon used to build the temple. And it goes on to emphasize these are the displaced peoples, the remnants of Israel’s enemies that he has enslaved. And it says, and it wasn’t just like a one-and project. It goes to say, to this very day, they’ve been enslaved. And one question that becomes fascinating to ponder is that this temple built by slaves is eventually inhabited by the God of Israel. And that’s what was left on the cutting room floor was this. Like, the question is, how could a just and holy God inhabit something with injustice baked into its walls? And as I meditated on this, I think what that ends up becoming for Israel is not an endorsement of the practice of Solomon and the means he used to build this empire for himself, but what God dwells in that space to serve as a persistent condemnation on these practices that solomon appeals to especially in building the temple and because god dwells in the space built By the hands of slaves his very presence as a just and holy god is a condemnation on that sort of of of of project and as it should be then a reminder constantly to the people that God will Endure with evil, but he will not suffer it to be final.

Raymond Carr
So when I define religion, I’m defining religion in a broader way where religion is defined as orientation. What is it that ultimately orients you? That’s your religion. Now, I don’t want to cut that out necessarily because I want to be radically inclusive. I want to be historically sensitive. So the way I do that is to talk about that religious perception in relation to revelation in a way where it’s not just critiqued, but it can be affirmed. Right. So that’s why I think like James Cone, who’s a father of black theology. He wrote a book called The Spirituals and the Blues. And his argument is that the blues are secular spirituals. The same people singing the spirituals on on sunday are singing the blues on saturday and these blues are are part of their religious orientation how you’re reaching out to god is that Or part of their stylistics yeah part of their mode of being so now i don’t want to take revelation and negate the importance of blues because blues is part of their cultural orientation And even when you’re listening to the spirituals at church you got a bluesy sound in them you see what i’m saying and so when you see me doing theology in the mode of monk part of that is that I’m working out of a richer definition of religion and not just the one barteres using to critique the problem of revelation and religion.
Ryan Diaz
Okay, this is probably an important pin or conversation on the scriptures and where to God to say you are one of the, one, I’m going to say the preeminent scholar on both James Cone and Karl Barth in America.

Raymond Carr
And so God is concerned with your life. And then he says it. And not only that, the black power movement is not just he would he would say it is not just it’s not alien to the gospel he would say it is the gospel and here we go again oh no how could you Say so no no you got to hear it like a dissonant note and and what he’s saying is he wants to boom hear the way god affirms black people in order now what i do is i bring the two of them together You say, why did you bring the two of them together? Well, James Cone did his master’s thesis and dissertation

Raymond Carr
And not only that they’re working with christology as the heart of the text that’s as important as the text and sometimes we don’t we don’t do that this is why again why i can say we’re radically Human why why are we radically human it’s because of the text it’s because of christ see and so sometimes i i usually tell the story that we approach the bible the way monkeys approach A telescope and i forget the gentleman that i heard say that so many years ago but it’s sort of like you like the point from me you’re going to take and make it your own yeah so that so that He said that you know we approach the bible the way monkeys approach a telescope i said what do you mean he said that you know you put a telescope in a cage with monkeys they might jump on It they might throw it around they might who knows pee on it they don’t look through it the point of the text is to look through the text to the reality that the text is witnessing to. That’s Christ. That’s God. God in Christ. And so sometimes we end up focusing on the text. And this is where our religion, we end up being more about religion than revelation. Because we’re not seeing the text as the way, the instrument to in some way open up the reality of who God is so we can hear God through the text.
Patrick Boatwright
It’s mistaking our speech about God for God himself.
Raymond Carr
Well, that’s certainly part of it. Because, see, God is the one that can make your speech about God legitimate speech about God. Right. But what we do is we make the Bible into it’s almost like by its own instrumentality, it shows you God.

Raymond Carr
And not only that they’re working with christology as the heart of the text that’s as important as the text and sometimes we don’t we don’t do that this is why again why i can say we’re radically Human why why are we radically human it’s because of the text it’s because of christ see and so sometimes i i usually tell the story that we approach the bible the way monkeys approach A telescope and i forget the gentleman that i heard say that so many years ago but it’s sort of like you like the point from me you’re going to take and make it your own yeah so that so that He said that you know we approach the bible the way monkeys approach a telescope i said what do you mean he said that you know you put a telescope in a cage with monkeys they might jump on It they might throw it around they might who knows pee on it they don’t look through it the point of the text is to look through the text to the reality that the text is witnessing to. That’s Christ. That’s God. God in Christ. And so sometimes we end up focusing on the text. And this is where our religion, we end up being more about religion than revelation. Because we’re not seeing the text as the way, the instrument to in some way open up the reality

Ryan Diaz
Merton has his book, Opening the Bible. And some of the things I’m hearing you play with this, it was how Merton puts it, he says, you know, when we come to the text, and this can be true of us, I think even for our community, part Of this whole Story of God series that we’ve been involving is a way to kind of shake us up and to shake off the shackles of often coming to the text and going, what text is this? But Merton says, instead of asking that question actually the way we approach the bible is the bible is looking at us and going who is the one that reads this right and part of what he’s
Raymond Carr
Saying is that the bible is really ultimately about our identity right because when you come to the text saying well what is this it’s almost like when we alluded to earlier the idea of Just being objective that’s an objective abstract question what is this thing called the bible in fact i can kind of master the Bible by the questions I bring to it to kind of look at it As this thing that you kind of work through technically. And Merton says, no, no, who is this that’s reading this text? So he moves you from that technical, objective standpoint to an existential, subjective standpoint, so that now you have to wrestle with the reality that you bring to that text that’s Part of the brilliance of what bird does that and by the way here’s a fact to it just for you you know you guys would like to share this kind of information uh carl

Raymond Carr
You move over and you get over to Paul. You’re going to get more stork kind of ideas associated with worldview so there’s no one worldview the bible is not trying to give you a worldview it’s trying to give you a view of god that Now stands in judgment or in relation to all worldviews right even our modern worldview and so merton talks about this when he talks about this idea of how the bible was taken up during The time of sophocles it was taken up during these other times and then he makes it clear that don’t throw out the Bible with those times in which the Bible was taken up with, or don’t reduce The Bible to these Western notions or Western views where now in some way, the Bible is only used to articulate those visions of faith. Now you’re not being historically sensitive. Or radically inclusive. Because now the Bible becomes tied up with Western man or Western humanity just as a critique of even the idea of man. It’s probably good that I said Western man, right? Because that’s who’s been asserting most of the power in relationship to the Bible. But Western notions of humanity that if you don’t see that the Bible is often a critique of these kind of worldviews, you’ll start looking at the text through those frameworks, and they’re Too narrow for what God is trying to do with us and how God brings us together.
Patrick Boatwright
And I think even for our community hearing that, like, it’s inserting the reality that there’s a danger then in assuming that these worldviews we bring to the text are static and they’re Authoritative so that these worldviews I bring to the text, I become ignorant of them thinking I’m doing this objective task, not realizing the mounds of subjectivity I bring to the Text.
Raymond Carr
That’s right. Oh, that’s wonderful. I love the way you’re articulating that. So again, part of the beauty with God is that I get to bring my particularity.