• Episode AI notes
  1. Liturgy is viewed as a recursive and algorithmic process, similar to getting to know a person over time rather than all at once, which leads to a fractal understanding of organic order.
  2. Hierarchy should be understood fractally, connecting to the concept of subsidiarity and emphasizing the need for interrelated local currencies.
  3. Preserving genuine localism in the American context is important for effective governance, as local currencies play a crucial role amidst a challenging economic landscape.
  4. Cities are likened to living organisms, suggesting that traditional statistical approaches to studying urban patterns are inadequate in capturing their complexity.
  5. A third kind of science, termed ‘the problem of organized complexity,’ is proposed for urban planning and economics to better reflect their biological nature.
  6. The academic system tends to reward simplicity and statistical sciences while neglecting the organic science associated with beauty, which is seen as a higher form of knowledge.
  7. The beauty-first approach to investing emphasizes evaluating businesses as living organisms, contrasting with data-heavy and simplicity-focused strategies.
  8. Simplicity enhances understanding and facilitates the broader sharing of ideas, while complexity often complicates communication and dissemination.
  9. Great thinkers may find it challenging to communicate complex ideas directly, highlighting the necessity of patience and experiential understanding.
  10. Interconnectivity in urban contexts facilitates collective wisdom, as the use of individual elements contributes to an organized complexity reflective of shared experiences.
  11. Rituals gain significance through collective participation, evolving through time while linking present experiences to historical contexts.
  12. Understanding complex problems requires recognizing the nuances beyond binary states, illustrated by the metaphor of the cat versus the toaster.
  13. Individual freedom is critical for fostering economic innovation, with constraints on freedom stifling growth and progress in the workforce.
  14. Evaluating information through quantity, potency, and quality reveals that organic complexity provides the most valuable insights, promoting wisdom in decision-making. Time 0:00:00

  • Liturgy as Recursion and Fractal Order Summary: Liturgy, as a mode of knowing, involves understanding that organic order is not grasped all at once, similar to knowing a person over time rather than instantly. It can be viewed as a recursive and algorithmic system, continually running and building upon the results of previous iterations, potentially generating a fractal order.

    Speaker 1
    Yeah, these are all, you know, these are great questions, you know, let’s see, what is liturgy? I mean, as a as a mode of knowing, liturgy revolves around the idea that, you know, organic order is not meant to be known all at once. Or like think of it as a as a person, you’re not meant to know a person all at once. We don’t introduce ourselves with, you know, a biography or the full life story, but rather living systems are meant to be known recursively. And that’s a little off the topic. But I guess recursion is a way to think about or algorithmic is a way to think about liturgy. It’s a it’s a system that’s running some basic equation, you know, one time, and then using the results from that first time running the same equation again. And again, it’s doing that, you know, potentially infinitely. And it’s as it’s as it doing so, it’s generating a fractal order.
  • Understanding Liturgy as a Recursive System Summary: Liturgy is akin to a recursive system where organic order is not meant to be understood all at once. It is comparable to getting to know a person incrementally rather than all at once. Liturgy operates like an algorithm, repeatedly running a basic equation with the results from each iteration, ultimately generating a fractal order. Just like a city’s structure, liturgy addresses perennial issues by following patterned resolutions generated through a recursive process, similar to algorithms solving problems. Rituals associated with death also exemplify liturgy’s recursive nature.

    Speaker 1
    Yeah, these are all, you know, these are great questions, you know, let’s see, what is liturgy? I mean, as a as a mode of knowing, liturgy revolves around the idea that, you know, organic order is not meant to be known all at once. Or like think of it as a as a person, you’re not meant to know a person all at once. We don’t introduce ourselves with, you know, a biography or the full life story, but rather living systems are meant to be known recursively. And that’s a little off the topic. But I guess recursion is a way to think about or algorithmic is a way to think about liturgy. It’s a it’s a system that’s running some basic equation, you know, one time, and then using the results from that first time running the same equation again. And again, it’s doing that, you know, potentially infinitely. And it’s as it’s as it doing so, it’s generating a fractal order. And so the city for Jacobs is an is like something it’s running an algorithm. It’s solving certain problems that are perennial problems of city life. And it’s resolving them in patterned ways that are also perennial. And in that sense, it’s there’s an algorithm running there. And that’s that’s kind of what liturgy does as well. I mean, think about like rituals around death.
  • Understanding hierarchy as fractal in theology Summary: Hierarchy, as understood in the theology of Dionysius, aligns with the concept of fractals. The term ‘hierarchy’ was first used as a proper noun in the 500s AD, reflecting the idea of understanding hierarchy in a fractal manner. This approach suggests that hierarchy cannot be disregarded but should be comprehended fractally. The concept is connected to subsidiarity and the necessity of various currencies at different fractal scales, which should be interrelated as they cover smaller areas.

    Speaker 1
    Well, I think, can I put an applaud for an article by a friend? Yes. It’s called an exploration of hierarchy as fractal in the theology of Dionysius, the Ariopa Gites. And it’s by a friend of mine named Georgia Jay Williams, Georgia Williams. And this word hierarchy was first coined, I mean, as a noun, as a, as a proper noun like that in the, maybe the 500s AD. And what it meant in the theology of this, this saint of the early church Dionysius was basically what we mean by fractal. So you kind of have to just re, you cannot, you can’t dispense with hierarchy, but you have to understand it fractally. And I think Henry, you were saying that that relates to this whole notion of subsidiarity, which I haven’t really read about. But just to give you an example that I used to discuss with Jane Jacobs in person when I was visiting her and talking to her on the phone, the answer to, to the currency issue is that we need Currencies at many fractal scales. And those, those currencies should be related. I mean, as you go, as you go down the scale, there should be more of them covering less area.
  • Preserving Genuine Localism and Local Currencies in the American Context Summary: Preserving genuine localism in the American context becomes challenging as the concept can be misinterpreted as advocating for a laissez-faire attitude, allowing corporations to dictate structures. This situation highlights a broken economic system in the United States, which in turn affects political discussions. Understanding the importance of local currencies, as proposed by Jane Jacobs, is crucial for effective governance as economic and political aspects are intertwined.

    Speaker 1
    Plunted in the American context it’s tricky because if you sort of speak for this idea of subsidiarity or localism, whatever, then that kind of gets hijacked by say the more conservative Voice to just put them in a kind of, you know, just a laissez-faire attitude about a lot of things which I think which in practice means that merchants or corporations that have some first Mover advantage will, they will dictate structures and it’s, I think it takes work to preserve a genuine local, and in any case maybe our political discussion in the United States is Hopelessly broken because our economics is broken. And unless we really understood why local currencies, you know, in the Jane Jacobs vision are so crucial, well then we’re really trying to govern ourselves in a vacuum independently Of our economic lives and that just can’t work.
  • Three Kinds of Science and City Patterns Summary: During the period from 1600 to 1900, scientists were limited to conducting one type of science according to the perspective of the speaker. This type of science, referred to as problems in simplicity, involves two variable problems where the dependence of one factor relies entirely on another single factor. The speaker illustrates that her opponents used statistical approaches, aiming to simplify their findings into the simplicity approach. She argues that cities resemble biological life forms and living organisms, suggesting that the statistical and simplicity approaches are not suitable for understanding urban patterns.

    Speaker 1
    From 1600 to 1900 in her opinion well I’ll say where she gets that opinion from in a second we could only do one of the three kinds of science and that was what she calls problems problems In simplicity which are two variable problems where the dependence of one factor depends you know wholly on the dependence of some other single factor and actually she’s it’s just Serendipity that when she was writing her death in life through this grant from the Rockefeller Foundation there was a guy there named Warren Weaver who was retiring after 27 28 years As head of kind of deciding who got the research money from Rockefeller and Warren Weaver wrote he he’s the one who wrote this report on what are these three kinds of science and that’s What she used and she could show pretty clearly that her opponents were using the second kind of science a statistical approach and then looking for ways to reduce it to the first kind Of science the simplicity approach and she was and she just said it turns out you know cities are something else they’re they’re like biological life forms and they’re they’re living Organisms and those two kinds of science are just not appropriate
  • Embracing organized complexity in studying living organisms Summary: The key insight from the snip is the importance of embracing the concept of organized complexity when studying living organisms like cities, as opposed to using a simplistic or statistical approach. By identifying and utilizing this third kind of science, researchers can accurately capture the intricate and dynamic nature of living systems, which traditional scientific methods might fail to address effectively.

    Speaker 1
    Of some other single factor and actually she’s it’s just serendipity that when she was writing her death in life through this grant from the Rockefeller Foundation there was a guy there Named Warren Weaver who was retiring after 27 28 years as head of kind of deciding who got the research money from Rockefeller and Warren Weaver wrote he he’s the one who wrote this report On what are these three kinds of science and that’s what she used and she could show pretty clearly that her opponents were using the second kind of science a statistical approach and Then looking for ways to reduce it to the first kind of science the simplicity approach and she was and she just said it turns out you know cities are something else they’re they’re like Biological life forms and they’re they’re living organisms and those two kinds of science are just not appropriate when you’re studying something living you have to use this third Kind of science that’s only been discovered in the last 30 years called the problem and organized complexity and I try to argue to my students that that this chapter 22 of death in life And really the Warren Weaver report itself
  • Redefining Sciences in Urban Planning and Economics Summary: Urban planning and economics are like biological life forms and should be studied using a specialized kind of science called ‘the problem of organized complexity.’ This unique scientific approach, outlined in chapter 22 of ‘Death in Life’ and the Warren Weaver report, should be fundamental in education. Students need to understand and differentiate between the reductive, statistical, and biological sciences. The speaker proposes reinventing urban planning as a biological science and advocates for a similar approach in economics, which has been overlooked despite offering a potential paradigm shift.

    Speaker 1
    She was and she just said it turns out you know cities are something else they’re they’re like biological life forms and they’re they’re living organisms and those two kinds of science Are just not appropriate when you’re studying something living you have to use this third kind of science that’s only been discovered in the last 30 years called the problem and organized Complexity and I try to argue to my students that that this chapter 22 of death in life and really the Warren Weaver report itself those are that report should be governing the university But every child should be learning those three that those three kinds of science exist from the time they’re in elementary school but certainly in college and we should be very explicit About when we’re doing which kind of science the reductive the statistical or the the biological and and so she’s saying what I’ve tried to do in this book is reinvent urban planning As if it were you know a species of biology essentially and then she spends the rest of her life trying to do the same thing for economics for which by the way she’s been completely ignored I mean it’s in my estimation because I think she really did reinvent the science of economics I
  • Valuing Different Approaches in Science Summary: The speaker reflects on the different types of science discussed in ‘Death and Life’, highlighting how society tends to reward those who focus on statistical and production aspects while neglecting the importance of preserving organic order. The speaker suggests that the third kind of science, which embraces simplicity and natural processes, is often overlooked as it is viewed as more feminine. This bias towards certain scientific approaches remains unexplained, leaving room for further exploration and understanding.

    Speaker 1
    I think you know there’s we respect psychopaths for some reason you know if you remember like at the end of chapter 22 of Death and Life when she’s talking about these three kinds of science You know the final meditation is somewhat bitter she talks about this park in upstate New York that has been statistically augmented but the production of clay dogs is now no longer Possible some kind of a natural process on the beach there and she asks what kind of a mind what kind of a person really was comfortable with this simpler form of order when it destroyed Of you know statistically you know expanding the park when it destroyed organic order and I think the academy you know tends to reward people who do the first two kinds of science and We and we think of that is science and we think and everything that our culture valorizes you know power I think maybe the third kind of science is more feminine and that’s one reason why Although it’s a higher science it’s neglected and so there’s a lot of there’s a lot of factors like that where you’re just not quite sure why and then it’s partly like a first mover advantage
  • The Three Kinds of Science and their Values Summary: There are three kinds of science: simplicity science focuses on utility, statistical science on truth, and organic science on beauty. The first two kinds of science are rewarded by the academic system, possibly because they align with the culture’s emphasis on power. However, organic science, which is associated with beauty and considered more feminine, is often neglected despite being a higher form of science. The neglect may be due to factors like first mover advantage and cultural biases.

    Speaker 1
    Know expanding the park when it destroyed organic order and I think the academy you know tends to reward people who do the first two kinds of science and we and we think of that is science And we think and everything that our culture valorizes you know power I think maybe the third kind of science is more feminine and that’s one reason why although it’s a higher science It’s neglected and so there’s a lot of there’s a lot of factors like that where you’re just not quite sure why and then it’s partly like a first mover advantage like the the other two kinds Of science were discovered first but you know the three kinds of science also work I mean let me put it another way the the in simplicity science it’s to use the socratic transcendental’s That’s the study of the good of of the good in the sense of what’s useful utility and statistical science is is the science of the true but organic science is the science of the beautiful And that was your original point in this interview you said she showed that ordinary people opening their eyes looking around feeling sensing
  • The Beauty-First Approach to Investing Summary: The beauty-first approach to investing, exemplified by Warren Buffett, focuses on evaluating businesses as living organisms. By looking at the health of a company and letting CEOs manage their work of art, investors can achieve high returns. This approach contrasts with the data-heavy strategies of ‘truth-firsters’ and the simplicity-focused approach of derivatives traders, as seen in the financial crisis of 2007-2008. Warren Buffett’s success demonstrates the effectiveness of the organic complexity approach to investing, echoing the principles of beauty-first advocated by Jacobs.

    Speaker 1
    You know the the real vindication of the of the beauty first approach to science and really of Jacobs I think is um although people wouldn’t think of this it’s Warren Buffett because All these all these truth firsters in in stock market investing with all their data you know I mean they are statistically they don’t do anything but they they command so much information And then these derivatives traders they’re they’re your simplicity theorists I mean they nearly sank our economy in 2007 2008 whereas Warren Buffett I mean that’s the beauty first Approach to investing he looks at each business as if it were a living organism he’s asking questions about the health of a company um in in in such a way and then and he even says that he Lets you know each CEO work on there as their work of art he doesn’t want to get involved in the management of the company and you know he’s doubling the market rate of return every year Since 1960 or whatever it is and it’s it’s the revenge of Jacobs because it is it is hit what he’s doing is the organic complexity approach to investing it’s a really good example I would Not have thought of that you know you know what’s interesting is you know who also was a beauty first investor was Keynes and Keynes you know he’s um he managed apparently the um the endowment For Cambridge I don’t
  • Simplicity Bridges Understanding Summary: Mythological figures in business often showcase strategies that appear simple yet are challenging to replicate. This simplicity facilitates broader understanding and viral sharing, as these strategies are more directly observable and actionable by others. In contrast, complex ideas are heavily influenced by individual human perspectives, making them harder to convey and disseminate. This highlights the importance of clarity and relatability in communicating concepts, as the ease of understanding significantly impacts their adoption and spread.

    Speaker 2
    Me want to try on an idea and we’ll see if I can figure out how to articulate it but um because I mean when you’re mentioning these names I think of wow they they sort of have been elevated To this like mythological status and I think part of it is that part of what people are so fascinated by is that it seems almost like the strategy seems so simple on its surface and yet so Hard to replicate and I wonder whether I guess like a the simplicity approach is maybe just easier to for people to pick up because it is it is more objectively falsifiable like if it’s Something that like anybody can kind of pick up and take on and repeat it’s and so it lends itself to sort of spreading very virally I guess because it’s yeah everyone is kind of observing It in the same sort of fashion whereas like with problems of organized complexity it’s it really is so tied to the lens of like if humans are sort of like vessels for ideas like it’s so tied To the human that is viewing that and like maybe Warren Buffett can’t really you know teach someone exactly the way that he sees the world and maybe that’s what makes it really difficult For some of these ideas to spread.
    Speaker 3
    I think that kind of just ties back into the liturgy itself it’s like it’s easy to tell people
  • Embrace Complexity and Patience in Understanding Summary: Ideas tend to spread virally when they are simple and universally observable, while more complex concepts are influenced by individual perspectives, making them harder to communicate and disseminate. Great thinkers, like Warren Buffett, may struggle to impart their insights directly because interpretations are deeply personal and subjective. Effective understanding often requires living out the ideas rather than merely discussing them, as true comprehension may elude those who seek immediate answers. This reflects a broader truth about the necessity of patience and the value of grappling with questions instead of rushing towards solutions.

    Speaker 2
    And so it lends itself to sort of spreading very virally I guess because it’s yeah everyone is kind of observing it in the same sort of fashion whereas like with problems of organized Complexity it’s it really is so tied to the lens of like if humans are sort of like vessels for ideas like it’s so tied to the human that is viewing that and like maybe Warren Buffett can’t Really you know teach someone exactly the way that he sees the world and maybe that’s what makes it really difficult for some of these ideas to spread.
    Speaker 3
    I think that kind of just ties back into the liturgy itself it’s like it’s easy to tell people things like that the ideas in your mind even if you say them it’s like do people actually understand What you’re saying and like I think living that out is a better way of understanding what they’re getting at. It kind of even reminds me of the the letters to a young poet that I sent you like not being out not being able to like live out the answers and so like the idea is to live out the questions I Think that’s hard for people because we just want an answer and we just want to like figure it out now and like this idea of like having patience and like I think that’s hard for people.
    Speaker 1
    It’s you know it is and this you know the young can
  • Collective Paths, Evolving Rituals Summary: Understanding the world involves more than recognizing individual elements; it requires seeing how these elements interact within a complex system. When people use a road, for instance, it transcends its basic function and becomes part of an organized complexity reflecting collective choices. This dynamic illustrates how artifacts and rituals participate in broader systems of meaning. Rituals, whether in urban planning or religious practice, gain significance through collective participation and shared history, reinforcing a sense of connection to both the present and the past. Thus, traditions evolve, yet they provide comfort by linking us to the collective wisdom of those who came before.

    Speaker 2
    Think that is what was really nice about uh Jacob’s Jacob’s and uh perception of this world is like I think of her as sort of like taking all the sort of like objective pieces and then weaving Them together into something that like the sum of all the parts is its own organism or it is its own way of understanding it but like each of those pieces still exists as their own thing Like a road is just a road but a road when people are on it is now like becomes a problem of organized complexity and so she’s not saying that the artifact is transforming into something
    Speaker 1
    Living but more that it is now participating in a system that is a separate thing that’s that’s a good point yeah and now it’s and now it now it will but like um I think sometimes it calms Desire lines in cities or higher purposes okay okay this thing is essentially a ritual has made that road and the ritual is everyone is you know going that way that’s the way that makes Sense that it’s collective wisdom you know that’s how that’s how we’re going to get across campus so let’s put the road there you know how do you think about this with religious rituals
    Speaker 2
    Evolving over time because like in my participation religion I find sort of a comfort in doing something that I know other people have done for centuries or millennia before I mean but At the same time
  • Interconnectivity Transforms the Ordinary Summary: Perception of the world can meld objective components into a cohesive understanding. Each component, like a road, retains its individuality but becomes part of an organized complexity when in use. This interaction creates a collective wisdom that shapes societal frameworks, much like rituals evolve to represent shared experiences across time. There exists a tension between honoring traditional practices and adapting them to contemporary needs, prompting reflection on how and when to initiate change while preserving historical connections.

    Speaker 2
    Think that is what was really nice about uh Jacob’s Jacob’s and uh perception of this world is like I think of her as sort of like taking all the sort of like objective pieces and then weaving Them together into something that like the sum of all the parts is its own organism or it is its own way of understanding it but like each of those pieces still exists as their own thing Like a road is just a road but a road when people are on it is now like becomes a problem of organized complexity and so she’s not saying that the artifact is transforming into something
    Speaker 1
    Living but more that it is now participating in a system that is a separate thing that’s that’s a good point yeah and now it’s and now it now it will but like um I think sometimes it calms Desire lines in cities or higher purposes okay okay this thing is essentially a ritual has made that road and the ritual is everyone is you know going that way that’s the way that makes Sense that it’s collective wisdom you know that’s how that’s how we’re going to get across campus so let’s put the road there you know how do you think about this with religious rituals
    Speaker 2
    Evolving over time because like in my participation religion I find sort of a comfort in doing something that I know other people have done for centuries or millennia before I mean but At the same time then yeah you have these sort of desire lines where like what if we want to kind of shape it into something different and how do you know when it’s right to shape it into something Else versus like it’s right to feel that connection to your ancestors or whatever
  • Understanding Complexity: The Cat or Toaster Dilemma Summary: Recognizing the nature of challenges and circumstances is essential for effective problem-solving. The distinction between scenarios—whether one can be disassembled and reassembled easily, like a toaster, or poses significant repercussions, like a cat—illustrates the complexity of situations we face. This complexity extends to issues like homelessness, where it is critical to understand the nuanced pathways leading to and from homelessness. Rather than viewing homelessness as a binary state, understanding the resilience and various factors involved, akin to a metabolic pathway, allows for a more comprehensive approach to support individuals transitioning in and out of difficult situations.

    Speaker 1
    Toaster and and it’s or the toaster and the cat or one of those and it’s you know the question is if you’re dealing with some are you dealing with a toaster or a cat you know is it is it and that Has to do with time can you take it apart and put it back together it’s a toaster if you take it apart are you do you belong in jail that’s a cat to get thesis it is and that’s and that you so the Emmanuel gospel center like you should see what they look what they’ll do for homelessness for example is they’ve got like my gosh a whole metabolic pathway of how you know it’s not just Some linear your homeless or not it’s this whole you know it’s like how close are you to being homeless how much resilience is in is there in your life now what’s separating you from homelessness And then what are the what’s like the the metabolic pathway by which a person becomes street involved and what keeps them there what gets them out and it’s really it’s really like you Know your biology your high school biology textbook and you look at what they’ve done you think ah yes now we’re talking someone’s thinking James would like this she really was I love
    Speaker 2
    This cat toaster test i’m just thinking about it
  • Freedom Fuels Innovation Summary: Economic prosperity hinges on the degree of individual freedom in the workforce. As societies develop, the concept of ‘slavery’ evolves; people become increasingly constrained by conditions that inhibit their ability to innovate and improve their work environment. Issues such as lack of portable healthcare force individuals to remain in jobs that limit their freedom, thus stifling economic growth. The ability to choose one’s work and adapt conditions, including personal comfort like bringing pets to work, plays a critical role in fostering a thriving economy. Ultimately, the distinction between work done by free individuals versus that done under constraints is vital for progress.

    Speaker 1
    Term but the way the liturgy failed there and then of course the cities failed as a result was an increasing proportion of the work was being done by slaves is how she puts it in other words People who are not free to develop their own work to resolve the problems and innovate and and what’s interesting about that is that as our society gets richer the definition of slavery Functionally i mean to make this liturgy work is is the standard is rising in other words i think slavery for us what’s hurting our economy is that your health care is neither guaranteed By the government nor portable so no people can’t leave their job because they’re going to lose their health care or it could be regulations or maybe in silicon valley it’s at such a high Level of development that slavery is i can’t bring my dog to work and and and i think there is a sliding scale you know in her terms and so that’s what’s that’s what’s crucial is is the work Being done by slaves or is it being done by free people and uh and and yeah so that’s her that’s her thing so it could be just the security of a
  • Prefer Quality Over Quantity Summary: Understanding information requires evaluating it through three lenses: quantity, potency, and quality. While simplicity provides potent insights and statistics offer high quantities, organic complexity yields the most valuable quality information. Wisdom is defined as valuing high-quality information above mere quantity or potency, highlighting the importance of discerning the nature of information to make well-informed decisions.

    Speaker 1
    My book the my book the ethics of beauty is coming out this summer from uh St. Nicholas press in Missouri and and the final chapter is the is the jay jaykab chapter so you can skip the rest and go straight to that but um fantastic but there is something else um in there And it has to do with i think um i think we need to think about in terms of the three kinds of science we need to think about information in terms of its its quantity its potency and its quality And i think that um that the problems in simplicity gives us really potent information and statistics gives us high quantity but only organic complexity gives us quality information And i try in the book to define what i mean by quality but i think i think i think the old definition of wisdom is something like or being wise is um to have a preference for high quality over High quantity or high potency information about other people